Posted by: thebylog | October 15, 2004

Quickly

I will be on a youth retreat-thingy this weekend, sans computer.

Why do Christian girls dress immodestly?

David called the love between him and Jonathan better than “the love of women.” Look it up.

If someone authorizes you to forge their signature, is it still wrong?

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Responses

  1. Note David said “love of women”, and not “love of a woman”. Gotta be a difference.

    I truly believe that most Christian girls do so in complete innocence.

    If someone does something “wrong” and they do it innocently, is it still wrong?

    Ag

  2. Note David said “love of women”, and not “love of a woman”. Gotta be a difference.

    I truly believe that most Christian girls do so in complete innocence.

    If someone does something “wrong” and they do it innocently, is it still wrong?

    Ag

  3. They may do so in complete innocence, but I think that there are a lot of christian girls (and guys for that matter) out there who have their focus on the wrong things or in the wrong place and do not realize how they can affect us guys. But we also need to think about how we affect the girls. -Marcel

  4. They may do so in complete innocence, but I think that there are a lot of christian girls (and guys for that matter) out there who have their focus on the wrong things or in the wrong place and do not realize how they can affect us guys. But we also need to think about how we affect the girls. -Marcel

  5. True, to a degree. However I know some absolutely dynamic Christian girls who some would say dress immodestly. So, if there heart is pure and innocent is there a problem?

    Who defines modesty anyhow? Each individual person does. What one person says is modest another may say is not at all. And what may be completely decent in one setting, may not be appropriate in another. So who calls the shots?

    Is it enough to define it for ourselves and live what we believe, given the fact that we respect the mindset of those around us?

    Ag

  6. True, to a degree. However I know some absolutely dynamic Christian girls who some would say dress immodestly. So, if there heart is pure and innocent is there a problem?

    Who defines modesty anyhow? Each individual person does. What one person says is modest another may say is not at all. And what may be completely decent in one setting, may not be appropriate in another. So who calls the shots?

    Is it enough to define it for ourselves and live what we believe, given the fact that we respect the mindset of those around us?

    Ag

  7. Good point Ag. I have to admit, it can get so frustrating trying to define “modesty” by focusing on the people around us, and what THEIR definitions are. This may sound cliche, but what we need is to look at what God is saying for us in our personal lives. For example, a Christian Amish woman may feel God wants her to wear the Amish dress to be modest. On the flip side, I do not feel imodest wearing clothes other than a cape dress. Who is right? Both of us.

    a

  8. Good point Ag. I have to admit, it can get so frustrating trying to define “modesty” by focusing on the people around us, and what THEIR definitions are. This may sound cliche, but what we need is to look at what God is saying for us in our personal lives. For example, a Christian Amish woman may feel God wants her to wear the Amish dress to be modest. On the flip side, I do not feel imodest wearing clothes other than a cape dress. Who is right? Both of us.

    a

  9. Interesting this came up. The other day I was talking with a guy at work, and he said that he doesn’t feel that girls have to dress as I do in order to be modest. I told him that that was true, that I feel that one can dress modestly in store-bought clothes. But that did make me wonder… Why DO I wear a cape dress? Because the church says so. But why does the church say so?? Maybe so we don’t dress immodestly. I don’t really know… Lauren

  10. Interesting this came up. The other day I was talking with a guy at work, and he said that he doesn’t feel that girls have to dress as I do in order to be modest. I told him that that was true, that I feel that one can dress modestly in store-bought clothes. But that did make me wonder… Why DO I wear a cape dress? Because the church says so. But why does the church say so?? Maybe so we don’t dress immodestly. I don’t really know… Lauren

  11. Your right, Ag, we can’t judge others by what we see on the outside. But I do believe the Bible has some things to say on the subject of modesty. I don’t know what kind of church you are from….I am from a Menn. church…although it isn’t very conservative…we don’t really have a dress code or whatever….(whether that is good or bad, I don’t know). I agree that a lot of sincere christian girls do dress imodestly …but usually because they haven’t been taught any different…but I think if girls really knew and really cared at how some of their dressing styles affect us guys…I think they would make a conscious effort not to dress certain ways. But I do believe that we as guys should also make a covenant with our eyes as Job did. Basically I think it is a two way issue…both sides need to take resposiblity for their side of the issue. -Marcel

  12. Your right, Ag, we can’t judge others by what we see on the outside. But I do believe the Bible has some things to say on the subject of modesty. I don’t know what kind of church you are from….I am from a Menn. church…although it isn’t very conservative…we don’t really have a dress code or whatever….(whether that is good or bad, I don’t know). I agree that a lot of sincere christian girls do dress imodestly …but usually because they haven’t been taught any different…but I think if girls really knew and really cared at how some of their dressing styles affect us guys…I think they would make a conscious effort not to dress certain ways. But I do believe that we as guys should also make a covenant with our eyes as Job did. Basically I think it is a two way issue…both sides need to take resposiblity for their side of the issue. -Marcel

  13. I’m afraid that when such a subject is brought up, often-times the focus is immediately drawn away from the Lord and to each other. which I have never seen any good come from.
    Nony Mouse

    P.S. Sorry if that sounded rather blunt and rude.

  14. I’m afraid that when such a subject is brought up, often-times the focus is immediately drawn away from the Lord and to each other. which I have never seen any good come from.
    Nony Mouse

    P.S. Sorry if that sounded rather blunt and rude.

  15. One thing I will not do is say that an immodest woman causes a man to sin. No way. A man can go anywhere–anywhere–and not sin with his eyes/mind if he has the right mindset.

    I just can’t figure out what people are thinking sometimes. It’s probably that they’re not thinking about it, but I can’t figure out how they couldn’t think about it, too.

  16. You’re right, Nony, it can be easy to focus on the clothes part and forget about the God part. I agree that a man, if he has a pure mind and a heart that is right with God, can go anywhere and not sin with his eyes. But I have seen both sides of the spectrum…the one side where churches regulate how you should dress…which causes one to focus on things other than God, and than the other side where people just buy into all the latest fads whether modest or immodest….it seems like if people’s hearts and mind are on God they would find a balanced middle. Partly I guess I am still trying to figure out the whole thing. But I suppose a lot has to do with attitudes and how one presents themselves to other people…that is one area where people can be really immodest. Anyways…-Marcel

  17. You’re right, Nony, it can be easy to focus on the clothes part and forget about the God part. I agree that a man, if he has a pure mind and a heart that is right with God, can go anywhere and not sin with his eyes. But I have seen both sides of the spectrum…the one side where churches regulate how you should dress…which causes one to focus on things other than God, and than the other side where people just buy into all the latest fads whether modest or immodest….it seems like if people’s hearts and mind are on God they would find a balanced middle. Partly I guess I am still trying to figure out the whole thing. But I suppose a lot has to do with attitudes and how one presents themselves to other people…that is one area where people can be really immodest. Anyways…-Marcel

  18. Yeah, your right about fads, they can be modest or immodest. And even though they are fun, they usually end up as a waste of money and time. In the end I prefer clothes that are practical and cover me up respectibly.
    -Nony Mouse

  19. Yeah, your right about fads, they can be modest or immodest. And even though they are fun, they usually end up as a waste of money and time. In the end I prefer clothes that are practical and cover me up respectibly.
    -Nony Mouse

  20. I’ve been getting the feeling more and more that we girls tend to really not realize how much differently than us God has wired guys and how very differently things affect them. I think if we cared more about that we’d be more careful, for love of them (the guys), and not be as concerned about having our freedom to dress the way we feel like dressing.

    Crystal

  21. I’ve been getting the feeling more and more that we girls tend to really not realize how much differently than us God has wired guys and how very differently things affect them. I think if we cared more about that we’d be more careful, for love of them (the guys), and not be as concerned about having our freedom to dress the way we feel like dressing.

    Crystal

  22. Random Thoughts

    I guess I must not be a very practical person. I love clothes! Although I’m a bit limited as to being able to carry out that passion in my present state, which may be very beneficial to simple things like….my pocketbook. This is coming from someone who loves clothes, so don’t write me off too soon. I think clothes are extremely important! Some people could really care less about how they look and what they wear, and that always bothers me. I think we have a RESPONSIBILITY to dress neatly, to dress modestly, and to dress attractively.

    They say the Mormons are one of the fastest growing religions in North America. That information fascinated me. I noticed something. The Mormons, as a whole, are a very well-dressed people. The schools have strict dress codes, the boys are all required to wear a suit and tie, etc. I don’t know if dress has anything to do with their rapid growth or not, it seems like it might have some effect. Because people notice!

    Crystal, I’m digesting your comment. I find it a bit ironic because in our society, in our culture, most girls dress for guys. You are suggesting the same thing, only on the flip side. (At least if I read your comment correctly.) I don’t know. I think it’s important to take all these things into consideration, but you could give yourself migraines and ulcers to the most severe extent if you always dressed for guys. You can worry yourself sick about what to wear or what not to wear, what is modest and what isn’t. That isn’t a good thing.

    I still think we need to be respectful, we need to keep an open mind, but dress for “ourselves”. Because it is basically unrealistic to do otherwise. You can’t define your wardrobe by other people’s standards because there is such difference of opinion. What one says is modest, the other says is not. What one says is okay to wear, the other says isn’t. So which voice are you going to listen to?

    Ag

  23. Random Thoughts

    I guess I must not be a very practical person. I love clothes! Although I’m a bit limited as to being able to carry out that passion in my present state, which may be very beneficial to simple things like….my pocketbook. This is coming from someone who loves clothes, so don’t write me off too soon. I think clothes are extremely important! Some people could really care less about how they look and what they wear, and that always bothers me. I think we have a RESPONSIBILITY to dress neatly, to dress modestly, and to dress attractively.

    They say the Mormons are one of the fastest growing religions in North America. That information fascinated me. I noticed something. The Mormons, as a whole, are a very well-dressed people. The schools have strict dress codes, the boys are all required to wear a suit and tie, etc. I don’t know if dress has anything to do with their rapid growth or not, it seems like it might have some effect. Because people notice!

    Crystal, I’m digesting your comment. I find it a bit ironic because in our society, in our culture, most girls dress for guys. You are suggesting the same thing, only on the flip side. (At least if I read your comment correctly.) I don’t know. I think it’s important to take all these things into consideration, but you could give yourself migraines and ulcers to the most severe extent if you always dressed for guys. You can worry yourself sick about what to wear or what not to wear, what is modest and what isn’t. That isn’t a good thing.

    I still think we need to be respectful, we need to keep an open mind, but dress for “ourselves”. Because it is basically unrealistic to do otherwise. You can’t define your wardrobe by other people’s standards because there is such difference of opinion. What one says is modest, the other says is not. What one says is okay to wear, the other says isn’t. So which voice are you going to listen to?

    Ag

  24. Well, well, wouldn’t you know. Folks, I’m here in Poland having a most delightful time with Crystal and all her Polish acquaintances. I recommend everyone does something like this at least once in their lifetime. It’s healthy. Doing ALOT of walking, riding buses, walking, visiting, walking, shopping — oh! and did I mention walking? 🙂

    About this clothing issue — Ag, I know what you’re saying when you long for some balance. I also think I hear what you’re saying about not trying to please everyone. I’ve come to the conclusion that when our focus is first and foremost on our relationship with God, He prompts us on what He wants for us individually for the ministry and calling He leads us into. The biggest issue here is: If I allow God to look at my heart and show me what He sees, what would He show me? Am I really seeking Him with everything I have and am, or am I just using my relationship with Him to get some things I want? Am I allowing Him to make me into His image or am I trying to make Him into mine?

    Praying that God grants us all the grace to will to obey Him,
    Merry

    p.s. She’s screaming and mad as a hornet.
    Crystal

    p.p.s. Oh, she says I have to say why. Because if clothes is where it’s at, it doesn’t matter how conservative you look, or how “free” you’ve become — you’re still focusing on clothes!!! Get over it!!

  25. Well, well, wouldn’t you know. Folks, I’m here in Poland having a most delightful time with Crystal and all her Polish acquaintances. I recommend everyone does something like this at least once in their lifetime. It’s healthy. Doing ALOT of walking, riding buses, walking, visiting, walking, shopping — oh! and did I mention walking? 🙂

    About this clothing issue — Ag, I know what you’re saying when you long for some balance. I also think I hear what you’re saying about not trying to please everyone. I’ve come to the conclusion that when our focus is first and foremost on our relationship with God, He prompts us on what He wants for us individually for the ministry and calling He leads us into. The biggest issue here is: If I allow God to look at my heart and show me what He sees, what would He show me? Am I really seeking Him with everything I have and am, or am I just using my relationship with Him to get some things I want? Am I allowing Him to make me into His image or am I trying to make Him into mine?

    Praying that God grants us all the grace to will to obey Him,
    Merry

    p.s. She’s screaming and mad as a hornet.
    Crystal

    p.p.s. Oh, she says I have to say why. Because if clothes is where it’s at, it doesn’t matter how conservative you look, or how “free” you’ve become — you’re still focusing on clothes!!! Get over it!!

  26. True ladies, so true. We scream the need for balance. There is a ditch on either side of the road, and regardless of which you fall into, you are still ditched.

    Ag

  27. True ladies, so true. We scream the need for balance. There is a ditch on either side of the road, and regardless of which you fall into, you are still ditched.

    Ag

  28. Still Thinking

    BUT……that doesn’t necessarily mean that there is anything wrong with liking clothes. Some people look down on someone that is interested in fashion and takes extra care in their appearance. Understandable? Maybe. But, some people look down on a person that is obsessed with reading, for instance. Not as much in the fact that the person loves books for themselves, but because they, the book lover, seem to look down on any person that doesn’t share that passion and seems to think that EVERYONE has to love reading. Or maybe it’s music. Or maybe it’s……it can be anything. We all have our hobby horse, and just because it’s our horse and we like to ride it because it works for us, it fits us, and it brings us pleasure doesn’t mean that everyone else should ride a horse just like ours.

    Ag

  29. Still Thinking

    BUT……that doesn’t necessarily mean that there is anything wrong with liking clothes. Some people look down on someone that is interested in fashion and takes extra care in their appearance. Understandable? Maybe. But, some people look down on a person that is obsessed with reading, for instance. Not as much in the fact that the person loves books for themselves, but because they, the book lover, seem to look down on any person that doesn’t share that passion and seems to think that EVERYONE has to love reading. Or maybe it’s music. Or maybe it’s……it can be anything. We all have our hobby horse, and just because it’s our horse and we like to ride it because it works for us, it fits us, and it brings us pleasure doesn’t mean that everyone else should ride a horse just like ours.

    Ag

  30. So, Merry you are saying that if my focus is on God then I will just automatically know what to wear?
    Susie

  31. So, Merry you are saying that if my focus is on God then I will just automatically know what to wear?
    Susie

  32. My dear Ag,
    You’re not talking about me, are you? Am I that obsessed with books?(grin)
    Donell

  33. My dear Ag,
    You’re not talking about me, are you? Am I that obsessed with books?(grin)
    Donell

  34. Donell? Oh ha!

    No, you didn’t even cross my mind, jest making a point.

    Ag

  35. Donell? Oh ha!

    No, you didn’t even cross my mind, jest making a point.

    Ag

  36. But, you are obsessed! I have never met anyone else who will go on a road trip with a 20 pound bag of BOOKS. Sure, a few to pass the time, but 10? Come now, all you do is pig valuable space. It’s probably good you can’t go in Feb. We would have to turn the downstairs into a library! (grins and grimaces)

    Ag

  37. But, you are obsessed! I have never met anyone else who will go on a road trip with a 20 pound bag of BOOKS. Sure, a few to pass the time, but 10? Come now, all you do is pig valuable space. It’s probably good you can’t go in Feb. We would have to turn the downstairs into a library! (grins and grimaces)

    Ag

  38. If God is in the center of our clothes, books, anything, should it become an obsession to us? I say this personally, not trying to look down on anybody, but surely our obsession should be serving God and being obedient to His word and everything else should come way under this. I really believe that if God is at the center of everything we do and say, He will guide us in anything we do whether it is dress, or the many other lines we have to draw in our lives. As far as dressing modestly is concerned, there is several steps I try to take in that area, Number one, look at God’s word, Number two, ask my Father,or my spiritual authority, Number three, ask my self this question, Is what I am wearing going to draw others(or myself) to the Lord, or farther away from Him? These are some things that help me personally. I agree that there are many lines that women have drawn to insure there modesty, and it is not exactly spelled out in the Bible how we are supposed to dress. I may be wrong, but I believe that most of girls know in our hearts what will draw a guys attention in the wrong way, and if we don’t know, we can ask and they will tell us.
    I think a big thing we must remember that we are not an island all to ourselves. We do have an influence on people’s lives to the good or to the bad. Sure like By said, a women’s dress do not make a man sin, but do we as Godly, Christian women whose purpose is to draw people to Christ, want to entice a man to sin?
    It comes down to focusing on what inhances the beauty within, rather then the beauty without. I say be neat, be clean, be lovely, but be modest. Modesty is the beauty of a heart fully surrendered to God.
    LaDonna

  39. If God is in the center of our clothes, books, anything, should it become an obsession to us? I say this personally, not trying to look down on anybody, but surely our obsession should be serving God and being obedient to His word and everything else should come way under this. I really believe that if God is at the center of everything we do and say, He will guide us in anything we do whether it is dress, or the many other lines we have to draw in our lives. As far as dressing modestly is concerned, there is several steps I try to take in that area, Number one, look at God’s word, Number two, ask my Father,or my spiritual authority, Number three, ask my self this question, Is what I am wearing going to draw others(or myself) to the Lord, or farther away from Him? These are some things that help me personally. I agree that there are many lines that women have drawn to insure there modesty, and it is not exactly spelled out in the Bible how we are supposed to dress. I may be wrong, but I believe that most of girls know in our hearts what will draw a guys attention in the wrong way, and if we don’t know, we can ask and they will tell us.
    I think a big thing we must remember that we are not an island all to ourselves. We do have an influence on people’s lives to the good or to the bad. Sure like By said, a women’s dress do not make a man sin, but do we as Godly, Christian women whose purpose is to draw people to Christ, want to entice a man to sin?
    It comes down to focusing on what inhances the beauty within, rather then the beauty without. I say be neat, be clean, be lovely, but be modest. Modesty is the beauty of a heart fully surrendered to God.
    LaDonna

  40. When me and Jewel eat out like we did tonight (Olive Garden), is it wrong for her to “forge” my signature on the credit card receipt?

    Tom

  41. When me and Jewel eat out like we did tonight (Olive Garden), is it wrong for her to “forge” my signature on the credit card receipt?

    Tom

  42. As long as you eat at Olive Garden, it don’t matter what you do.

    LONG LIVE OLIVE GARDEN!

    Ag

  43. As long as you eat at Olive Garden, it don’t matter what you do.

    LONG LIVE OLIVE GARDEN!

    Ag

  44. Thank You for those thoughts and guidlines LaDonna, the one about asking my father/spiritual leader really hit home. Too many times I forget or dont want to ask.
    Susie

  45. Thank You for those thoughts and guidlines LaDonna, the one about asking my father/spiritual leader really hit home. Too many times I forget or dont want to ask.
    Susie

  46. Tom’s Undeniable Truths of Life #14: All women love Olive Garden.

    My favorite things there are the peach ice tea and the Zuppa Tuscana soup.

    Tom

  47. Please, please — the other 13? Or how about the entire list (assuming that #14 is not the last)?

    Crystal

  48. Tom, I would be totally interested in knowing what truths 1-13 are… I might gain some…knowledge. Or at least humor!!!

    Ag, ypu’re not the only one that loves clothes, and loves to, uuumm, dress as nice as she may!!:)
    Lauren

  49. Tom, forgive me while I take a moment and giggle, yes giggle, behind my hand. Nothing really. It’s just that you are the only man I know that drinks peach tea. But, hey, you go!

    Lauren, hey we work with what we got.

    Ag

  50. I will boldly, proudly state that I drink peach ice tea. I am completely baffled at why that should cause you to giggle. Any man that wouldn’t drink it for reasons other than taste preference, I seriously question their mental capacity.

    I am an ice tea connoisseur. I love ice tea.

    Tom

  51. I will boldly, proudly state that I drink peach ice tea. I am completely baffled at why that should cause you to giggle. Any man that wouldn’t drink it for reasons other than taste preference, I seriously question their mental capacity.

    I am an ice tea connoisseur. I love ice tea.

    Tom

  52. I am so glad that you have such a strong mental capacity. The world rejoices with me.

    You can drink anything you like, I could really care less, but I have just never met a man that drinks peach tea, just a fact of my life. But, YEAH, now I do.

    Ag

  53. I am so glad that you have such a strong mental capacity. The world rejoices with me.

    You can drink anything you like, I could really care less, but I have just never met a man that drinks peach tea, just a fact of my life. But, YEAH, now I do.

    Ag

  54. Tom, did you fall out of a speeding car when a child and damage some vital portions of your cerebelum? It would clarify some things…. Heh. Imagine: peach iced tea. Yeech. I was about to say that it goes to show that you have some real southern blood in you, but alas it’s Peach. Nope, southern tea is real tea and it’s sweet. Nor is it peach.

  55. Tom, did you fall out of a speeding car when a child and damage some vital portions of your cerebelum? It would clarify some things…. Heh. Imagine: peach iced tea. Yeech. I was about to say that it goes to show that you have some real southern blood in you, but alas it’s Peach. Nope, southern tea is real tea and it’s sweet. Nor is it peach.

  56. But, have you tried it?

    Oh, and Tom, I just remembered something of vital importance. I have a friend in New York, female friend that is, who really doesn’t not care for the Olive Garden AT ALL! So sad!

    Ag

  57. let me vouch for tom. he makes some great sweet tea. i know guys that drink peach tea. tom, i think them easterners are just slower to pick up the finer tastes when it comes to tea. to each his own. tom, if you are ever in iowa take jewel to the iowa power restuarant. weird name but great place. you are right about the olive garden. we went there on our first date.
    rande

  58. let me vouch for tom. he makes some great sweet tea. i know guys that drink peach tea. tom, i think them easterners are just slower to pick up the finer tastes when it comes to tea. to each his own. tom, if you are ever in iowa take jewel to the iowa power restuarant. weird name but great place. you are right about the olive garden. we went there on our first date.
    rande

  59. No kidding! So did we.

    Darin Darin Darin, so closeminded! I will say though that of all the ice tea there is, the absolute best is the SOUTHERN

  60. No kidding! So did we.

    Darin Darin Darin, so closeminded! I will say though that of all the ice tea there is, the absolute best is the SOUTHERN

  61. No kidding! So did we.

    Darin Darin Darin, so closeminded! I will say though that of all the ice tea there is, the absolute best is the SOUTHERN liquified sugar kind. Unbeatable. But there are many other wonderful kinds. Not that I’d expect you to expand your horizons that much Darin! Heaven forbid.

    Ok so today at work, “I Will Survive” comes on the radio. Women love this song. Amy is probably in her mid-twenties and runs the quality gate in my area. She started dancing. I asked, “All women love this song don’t they.” She laughed and said she supposed so.

    Later I asked, and all women love Olive Garden too, don’t they. She said, well who doesn’t like pasta?

    Tom

    PS As I type I’m brewing up some imitation southern sweetened ice tea. Come on over and have a glass everybody!

  62. Eeek. Does it hurt one terribly to broaden your horizons? Tell me please.

    OK, I’ll admit that there are other types of tea that could be good. But I’ll not let real iced tea off the high bracket.

    I’m finally going to say my piece about the modesty issue. Guys, we have a responsibility. A big one. Are we being the encouragement to dress modestly that the girls need? Are we acting in ways toward them that encourage modesty? I think we need to show to them that we uphold the principles of modesty and show them that we support them (the girls).

    That’s a little of what’s been churning in my mind. Perhaps more will surface later.

  63. Eeek. Does it hurt one terribly to broaden your horizons? Tell me please.

    OK, I’ll admit that there are other types of tea that could be good. But I’ll not let real iced tea off the high bracket.

    I’m finally going to say my piece about the modesty issue. Guys, we have a responsibility. A big one. Are we being the encouragement to dress modestly that the girls need? Are we acting in ways toward them that encourage modesty? I think we need to show to them that we uphold the principles of modesty and show them that we support them (the girls).

    That’s a little of what’s been churning in my mind. Perhaps more will surface later.


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